Shap & RedTube, your thoughts? - Page 4

mechanicvirus · February 17th, 2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MGPdevil

How is robbing a store theft? They have less cash than a bank.

Last time I checked stores or banks don't give out free promo items with guidelines about nothing using said item with another item.

AmateurFlix · February 17th, 2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap

I've made it clear that I'm trying new approaches to solving my content theft problem.

you've made it clear that you're sponsoring those who steal content from other producers. there is no way around that.

giving in to thieves and extortionists isn't really "solving" a problem so much as inviting more of the same.

I give it a week before they "renegotiate" for a higher payout. You know damn well what the consequences will be if you don't comply

Shap · February 17th, 2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

you've made it clear that you're sponsoring those who steal content from other producers. there is no way around that.

giving in to thieves and extortionists isn't really "solving" a problem so much as inviting more of the same.

I give it a week before they "renegotiate" for a higher payout. You know damn well what the consequences will be if you don't comply

I don't think you've ever done business with me. I don't do things on other people's terms. We do them on our terms. We have rules in place that all affiliates must follow. No special treatment for anyone. On friday it was brought to my attention that Redtube wasn't following the rules. As a result all links and videos were removed on friday.

AmateurFlix · February 17th, 2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

The funny thing is that everyone is bitching about tube sites while their traffic falls and falls... and I see ALOT of webmasters jumping on the tube site bandwagon... even some who bitch about it.

I don't who's seeing their traffic drop, but if it is, it's their own fault, not someone else's. There's plenty of people around building bigger networks all the time. Maybe the MGP guys are seeing this problem to a greater degree or something, but a tube site is an MGP so that's not really any surprise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

We aren't going to stop tube sites... anymore then we stopped torrent sites, warez sites or newsgroups for that matter.

newsgroups? people still use those? I thought they pretty much got replaced by torrent sites, which is where the fight shifted to. Piracy will probably never be eliminated, merely contained. The fight needs to shift toward whatever is the biggest problem at the moment. Currently this is heading toward (illegal varieties of) tube sites.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

Where does that leave us? Well... I would say that for awhile the new model will be more updates and more investment in content until a better method is discovered.

If a site like Twisty's is feeling a pinch because of this then more/better updates isn't going to solve anything. There's already more content in that site than anyone with a layer skin left on his overworked shaft could possibly look through.

For sites with 20 videos and 5k pics yeah more content might help. Bigger sites that already offer more content than one person can wade through aren't going to see any further benefit, and frankly Shap's claim that giving up on this fight will lead to greater innovation or better content quality is the most fucking pathetic part of his arguement.

I can at least somewhat respect a person with balls enough to say "hey we're getting fucked and it's just not profitable for us to continue this fight".

However trying to wrap up someone's weakness under the guise of adapting to future trends while simultaneously telling the rest of the industry they're to blame for not delivering good enough content is simply insulting.

Shap · February 17th, 2008, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

I don't who's seeing their traffic drop, but if it is, it's their own fault, not someone else's. There's plenty of people around building bigger networks all the time. Maybe the MGP guys are seeing this problem to a greater degree or something, but a tube site is an MGP so that's not really any surprise.

newsgroups? people still use those? I thought they pretty much got replaced by torrent sites, which is where the fight shifted to. Piracy will probably never be eliminated, merely contained. The fight needs to shift toward whatever is the biggest problem at the moment. Currently this is heading toward (illegal varieties of) tube sites.

If a site like Twisty's is feeling a pinch because of this then more/better updates isn't going to solve anything. There's already more content in that site than anyone with a layer skin left on his overworked shaft could possibly look through.

For sites with 20 videos and 5k pics yeah more content might help. Bigger sites that already offer more content than one person can wade through aren't going to see any further benefit, and frankly Shap's claim that giving up on this fight will lead to greater innovation or better content quality is the most fucking pathetic part of his arguement.

I can at least somewhat respect a person with balls enough to say "hey we're getting fucked and it's just not profitable for us to continue this fight".

However trying to wrap up someone's weakness under the guise of adapting to future trends while simultaneously telling the rest of the industry they're to blame for not delivering good enough content is simply insulting.

LOL WTF are you talking about. It never ceases to amaze me how people twist the hell out of things.

AmateurFlix · February 17th, 2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap

I don't think you've ever done business with me.

And now I'm not going to

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap

We have rules in place that all affiliates must follow. No special treatment for anyone.

But you've already implied that you're OK with people using illegal content on the same domain that they promote your own links on.

So would you allow an affiliate to promote rape, child p*rn, beastiality, or other forms of illegal content on pages of the same domain so long as that content wasn't on the same page promoting your links?

Or do you just make an exception for crimes of theft from your colleagues?

Shap · February 17th, 2008, 12:29 PM

Amateur Flix answer me this

What have you done to help companies in the fight against content theft?

What have you done to help eliminate content theft on youporn, redtube and megarotic?

What positive contributions have you made to the industry in the past few years?

AmateurFlix · February 17th, 2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap

Amateur Flix answer me this

What have you done to help companies in the fight against content theft?

What have you done to help eliminate content theft on youporn, redtube and megarotic?

What positive contributions have you made to the industry in the past few years?

answer my questions above first

nation-x · February 17th, 2008, 12:34 PM

Usually I am with you rick... but in this argument you are not making alot of sense and some of your responses don't match what you are responding to.

Shap · February 17th, 2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

And now I'm not going to

But you've already implied that you're OK with people using illegal content on the same domain that they promote your own links on.

So would you allow an affiliate to promote rape, child p*rn, beastiality, or other forms of illegal content on pages of the same domain so long as that content wasn't on the same page promoting your links?

Or do you just make an exception for crimes of theft from your colleagues?

I wouldn't allow any of those. It's a personal choice. A lot of companies would have no problem taking them. I personally would not.

With regards to taking RedTube traffic. I made the decision that as long as they are not going to allow any stolen twistys content to appear on the site I'd give it a shot and see what happens. This is knowing that they are approaching other companies to do the same thing. They are the one site of all tube sites that seem to have the desire to become legit ( I'll believe it when I see it).

nation-x · February 17th, 2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap

I wouldn't allow any of those. It's a personal choice. A lot of companies would have no problem taking them. I personally would not.

With regards to taking RedTube traffic. I made the decision that as long as they are not going to allow any stolen twistys content to appear on the site I'd give it a shot and see what happens. This is knowing that they are approaching other companies to do the same thing. They are the one site of all tube sites that seem to have the desire to become legit ( I'll believe it when I see it).

I think pornotube opened this can of worms... but they have been forced to make it legit the hard way.

shunga · February 17th, 2008, 12:42 PM

I think you already know the answer to that, Shap. And you're losing some good PR while allowing your good name and reputation to be used to pull in other people.

AmateurFlix · February 17th, 2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap

I wouldn't allow any of those. It's a personal choice. A lot of companies would have no problem taking them. I personally would not.
...

This is knowing that they are approaching other companies to do the same thing. They are the one site of all tube sites that seem to have the desire to become legit ( I'll believe it when I see it).

If this is as you say a concerted effort on their part to become legitimate, that casts this situation in a much different light than what it appeared to be - one rogue sponsor endorsing theft from his colleagues.

Frankly my first impression of this was AFF/Zango all over again. I don't think that decision helped AFF any. It sure didn't help them retain an affiliate base.

I do hope this works out in the sense that they become a legitimate site no longer using stolen content. If that is your 'tactic', then I applaud you for it.

If it they decide to remain pirates, and you're still supporting them after that decision is clear, then that would be a different situation again.

Now to answer your questions:

Quote:

What have you done to help companies in the fight against content theft?

Not very much, because I am not a part of the problem. I don't give out very much free content anymore. I rarely list movie galleries at all. I thought it was a fucking dumb idea years ago when MGP's started and I think it's a dumb idea now. I figured back then that it would result it people giving away more and more until there was no longer a reason to join a site for videos, and I didn't want to be part of such a stupid method of promotion.

Quote:

What have you done to help eliminate content theft on youporn, redtube and megarotic?

I'll confess: I actually donate traffic to redtube. All of my chinese traffic from across my network gets forwarded to the longest video I could find on their site. Hope they enjoy trying to convert it.

Quote:

What positive contributions have you made to the industry in the past few years?

Other than send lots of sales to sponsors, promote without giving away much free content (most sites I promote I no longer give away any content at all), and participate on forums giving advice on occasion, not a whole lot.

One thing I do not do is participate in many methods of promotion that are going to end up making it harder for me to make sales further down the road. But frankly I don't know what else someone could want of affiliates.

AmateurFlix · February 17th, 2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

some of your responses don't match what you are responding to.

I have no idea what you're referring to. Everything I posted was on topic, unless you were referring to more updates on free sites as opposed to membership sites...

Shap · February 17th, 2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

If this is as you say a concerted effort on their part to become legitimate, that casts this situation in a much different light than what it appeared to be - one rogue sponsor endorsing theft from his colleagues.

Frankly my first impression of this was AFF/Zango all over again. I don't think that decision helped AFF any. It sure didn't help them retain an affiliate base.

I do hope this works out in the sense that they become a legitimate site no longer using stolen content. If that is your 'tactic', then I applaud you for it.

If it they decide to remain pirates, and you're still supporting them after that decision is clear, then that would be a different situation again.

I'm not going to stand behind them. But they specifically told me they want to have absolutely no copyright material on their site. That they are working day in and day out to have the system in place to make sure they are 100% legit. My gut tells me the greed and hook of the huge traffic will prevent them from ever changing to this. But I'm hopeful they will.

Shap · February 17th, 2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

I'll confess: I actually donate traffic to redtube. All of my chinese traffic from across my network gets forwarded to the longest video I could find on their site. Hope they enjoy trying to convert it.

heheheh i like that

Head Boy · February 17th, 2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

I'll confess: I actually donate traffic to redtube. All of my chinese traffic from across my network gets forwarded to the longest video I could find on their site. Hope they enjoy trying to convert it.

If they have any sense, they'll send that on to chinese porn sites. I gather they make good profits.

AmateurFlix · February 17th, 2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shap

I'm not going to stand behind them. But they specifically told me they want to have absolutely no copyright material on their site.

I'm glad to hear that. And I apologize for going off on you like that. I'm sure you can understand my perspective given I was under the impression that you were the only one they were dealing with while planning to continue stealing from others.

Frankly it drives me nuts at times watching some of the half-assed attempts at marketing that people in this business make. I've watched porn turn from a literal goldmine that people would crawl through a gutter to obtain and spend any $ for (pre-internet) to the current situation, and the idea that one of the bigger sites on the net would endorse even more cut-throat bull shit for such a pathetically short-term gain was the tipping point.

We're in a business where anyone who knows how to make basic HTML can pretend to be a salesman, but the fact is most of them are not, and the profitable sectors of this industry would likely be better off without the majority of them muddying things up for the rest of us. I guess as long as open affiliate sign-ups are the rule that's not going to change much. The qualification for most sponsors to accept an affiliate is that they can click a join button on an affiliate page, and the level of talent available is commensurate to that standard.

People bitch and complain about providing too much free content but hardly anyone seems to be willing to do anything about it themselves.

Sponsors claim that SEO gurus, PPC guys, and review sites provide the majority of sales, then cater to the every whim of freesite owners, who are the #1 (legitimate) source of free porn which everyone seems to agree is driving down ratios. Seems to me it's a bit foolish to go out of one's way to help an affiliate sector making a smaller portion of the overall sales when they're functioning to the detriment of those generating the larger portion of sales. That's not a zero-sum game, that's shooting oneself in the foot. Not referring to you or this tube situation specifically, but you've got me started on a good rant

To top it all of we have people running TGP's - as do I - who bitch about guys running CJ's like there's something inherently wrong with them. I've got news for you noobs, CJ's were a hell of a lot more effective means of marketing than your free sites are or ever will be. Take a minute and ask yourself, what is the more effective marketing strategy, jerking potential customers around from one site to the next until they HAVE to pay to see something, or providing them with free galleries and hoping they'll buy something? The ones that started giving the content away are the bad guys, not the ones that were preserving a marketplace. Just like you people that complain about tube sites now giving away too much content. By the same logic, people just like you are going to be calling YOU the bad guy 5 years from now for jerking people around to galleries with "tiny" 20 second clips instead of giving entire movies away for free.

The marketing of video as a promotional method was probably the dumbest fucking move this industry could have ever made.
</rant>

AmateurFlix · February 17th, 2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head Boy

If they have any sense, they'll send that on to chinese porn sites. I gather they make good profits.

not any of the ones I tried

Viper · February 17th, 2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nation-x

The funny thing is that everyone is bitching about tube sites while their traffic falls and falls... and I see ALOT of webmasters jumping on the tube site bandwagon... even some who bitch about it.

It's going to get a hell of a lot worse for content theft... As more and more third world countries get access to the internet, things will only get worse... And since this business can't get together on such an important issue, all the programs are going to become slaves to those with the traffic, many of which will be crooks.

I really don't understand why a bunch of the big programs don't get this or even care.. It's so clear they need to form a group to combat it for them like so many other mainstream companies do...

On the other hand, I don't even understand why the bigger companies can't deal with it better on their own in the first place... 1 or 2 employees who's sole job it is to db all the sites that steal content and then check them every day or two and do up the DMCAs...

Having said that, I have a tube site in the works myself...

February 17th, 2008, 12:34 PM	#69 (permalink)
nation-x LifestyleAmateurs.com Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 8,684	Usually I am with you rick... but in this argument you are not making alot of sense and some of your responses don't match what you are responding to. __________________ The only traffic I would ever buy: Traffic Out Traffic Trades: TGP and Blog Trades

February 17th, 2008, 12:42 PM	#72 (permalink)
shunga Traffic Guru Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 440	I think you already know the answer to that, Shap. And you're losing some good PR while allowing your good name and reputation to be used to pull in other people. __________________ Got an Asian site? ICQ: 355-26-288 Email: admin AT clockworkcash DOT com

February 17th, 2008, 12:29 PM	#67 (permalink)
Shap Traffic Guru Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 211	Amateur Flix answer me this What have you done to help companies in the fight against content theft? What have you done to help eliminate content theft on youporn, redtube and megarotic? What positive contributions have you made to the industry in the past few years?