We are the 99 percent
We are getting kicked out of our homes. We are forced to choose between groceries and rent. We are denied quality medical care. We are suffering from environmental pollution. We are working long hours for little pay and no rights, if we're working at all. We are getting nothing while the other 1 percent is getting everything.
We Are the 99 Percent
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aww isn't that too bad, this person is only getting $860/month from taxpayers who actually work for a living.
and what exactly is the implication here? that this individual is too disabled to work even a desk job of some sort and yet is physically fit enough to fuck like a whore?
at least half of the people on that page are bitching about paying off student loans - no one forced them to go to an expensive college and take out the loans. I wanted to go to an expensive college which I would only have been able to afford by taking out loans. I chose not to get into debt. if I had, then the only person to blame would have been myself, surely not some stockbrokers on Wall St.
some of them are even complaining about not being able to find a job "in their field", as if anyone owes them a job in their chosen field, or they expect to be able to find something of their preference in the midst of a recession.
where is the personal responsibility? I keep hearing some new catchphrase about a "social contract" of some sort, yet no one can produce it. I'd like to see a copy, I don't recall agreeing to anything like that.
99% whiney bitches
So what would you do if you lost both arms tomorrow.. could you really survive without help from family or government?
You do realize Americans pay into disability via tax just as they do unemployment and social security and that you need a certain number of work credits to qualify?
Freeloaders don't get free welfare disability and while they may qualify for other aid it's not the same.
Social Security Disability Insurance (SSD or SSDI) is a payroll tax-funded, federal insurance program of the United States government.
Social Security Disability Insurance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And sure people are upset about student loans because of the interest and penalties that banks are using to inflate those loans while many can't pay. Especially when there are no jobs for these students to earn enough money so they actually can pay. Yet it's a paroblem because people behind the banks that gave the loans crashed the economy which destroyed so the jobs needed to pay the loans.
I know you and every other Republican seems to think any person struggling must be a total dead beat. But lets be real since even if these people could get a crappy job at Walmart they would be lucky to afford dinner that is not rice and beans for a family of four. You are most certainly better off taking the very benefits that you paid into and give the finger to those who put you down. It's not something the majority of Americans planned. Especially true for those who put their lives on hold to better their education so they could later better America.
Let me also tell you a real life story of the bullshit behind this American welfare hate.
My mother is on disability but in fact she was sick and still worked for many many years with the same company. Finally her company laid her off along with 800 others due to a merger that took place from a buyout of another company. Then she was hired back and made to work harder and longer hours for the same money as her salary was capped. Then a few months later another layoff came and she was back in the unemployment line yet again.
She had been with the company for over 16 years and drove over an hour both ways every single day to work and back. So once laid off she tried to get other jobs but they wanted to pay 2/3 or often less then what she was making which was not really that much for someone with her experience. In the end if she took those other jobs she would have to work yet another job to fill in the gaps.. except she was sick. So her working two jobs was out of the question and most of those with job openings were trying to exploit people with low wages long before the economy collapsed.
Then one day we went to a store and my mother put up her handicap permit and parked as she always does. There were three guys walking to their car by us and one said she probably "bought her permit on Ebay". I lost it and ran and grabbed the fucker by his throat and punched him in the face. His friends would not step up although i challenged all of them to say another word and instead they pleaded with me not to hit them. I don't care about jail you fuck with my family and i'll eat your fucking heart while you die watching.
And the strange thing is even after being spit on my mother being a typical Republican who supports Tea Party, still believes Bush was a great president, talks down on the sick, hungry and anyone ELSE who gets a hand out. This seems to be the exact modi operandi that has been planted into the heads of people who are unable to think for themselves. For a while she loved Glenn Beck and worshipped him until finally realizing he was a fucking kook. Then it Sarah Palin was her hero but that was pretty short lived we used to argue about the cunt and she would defend her to no end because Faux News had brainwashed her to hate Dem's.
My mother is that way because of her Jewish boyfriend who is a retired cop that worked over 30 years in law enforcement. He can't stand the fact that anyone gets help because when he was young and struggling no one helped him including his own family. So that's where that bad seed came from and yet my mother is a very giving person she gives lots of his money to charity, shelters sick Yorkie's and helps to raise money for sick and abused animals. My mothers boyfriend used to really hate her involvement with animals because it cost him money but the dogs kinda grew on him.
Fact is many of those same people who rally against freeloading have been freeloaders at one time themselves. I worked mostly for small private security firms with less then 50 employees where insurance would have cost me almost half if not more of my paycheck thanks to our wonderful copay system. So it was always out my my reach which was not by choice even if it was a choice i was forced to make.
My first blood clot racked up over $100k in medical bills in a matter of a week. I would never be able to pay that and the hospital simply gave me charity when i said i could not afford to pay that much money. It was easier for the hospital to write it off then to spend a hundred years trying to collect from my piggy bank. Even if i could pay what would happen the next time i got sick or maybe the time after that. Eventually you get trapped in the system where you are taxed $50 for a bar of soap, $80 for a tube of toothpaste and $800+ per day for a room that does not even come with a maid service or personal butler.
When do we get to the point where money we invested as tax payers to create hospitals and build schools to teach doctors that we deserve a little break?
Remember how doctors, banks, layers and all that got started off the backs of WE THE PEOPLE. Without the rest of us none of those people could make their big bucks. So they need us as much if not more then we need them to live the lifestyle they enjoy from our sweat. I don't believe any banker aside from family owned bank should make a million dollars a year nor any public sector oil company exec. Except most Republicans forget those big salaries are covered by the hidden cost of Gasoline and services that we pay through federal tax that gives subsidies to these huge Corps.
The fact is less then 2% of America makes over a million or anywhere near that. Yet if America went back to the days of small family owned stores rather then Walmarts on every corner the Elite would be unable to live the life and would surely seek a hand out. When the billionaire bankers went broke they got a a hand out no problem. But of course we should't bail out anyone who can't make their monthly mortgage payments this month because of the economy that Republicans and greed driven Banks created.
We can always do more for middle and upper class but the moment we do something for the bottom half who give all they have to keep the rest in the middle or the top it creates outrage. Just remember rich people can hire hookers they don't need your porn and middle upper class guys can often afford hot wives. While it's mainly mid to low class who are buying cheap porn, surfing tubes and looking for a cheap date with some hot pixels.
You may not believe this but without the poor there can be no rich and those at the top could not afford to live with equality. Without wage driven poverty and equality nobody is going to be the maid, servant, slave or do any form of hard physical labor. That would simply make life unbearable for those who enjoy spitting on from atop of their pillars cast of blood sweat and tears from those 99% that make up the rest of us.
TDLR: haters hate while realists appreciate
Last edited by toker; October 2nd, 2011 at 06:55 PM.
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The point is that the person you cited as an example above is obviously capable of performing strenuous manual labor and is collecting disability anyway. I rather doubt that this an armless whore.Originally Posted by toker
I am not disputing that someone who is genuinely unable to function in some productive manner should collect the benefits which they've paid into. However far too often the situation is shit like this. I saw it all the time growing up. I've seen it in the lowest income levels from the dirt poor through the upper-middle class. Many people want hand-outs and take them when they can get them.
I am not registered with any political party. I never have been. My views are more inline with Libertarians than any other group.
That is not my belief at all.
oh the struggles of those who went to college on money that didn't belong to them rather than work some shitty job and after having graduated are still trying to avoid a shitty job
I'll save my sympathy for the 23 year old pulling a double shift at McDonald's and Wal-Mart. At least it displays a work ethic.
Yeah, I agree with that sentiment. What I don't agree with is selectively picking and choosing who gets how much of a break. It can only be fair if it's equal. Why should someone's student loans or mortgage be reduced or forgiven when other struggled and made sacrifices to pay off their own obligations? Where is the fairness or accountability in that?
These people shouldn't be given money that the rest aren't entitled to. And that's what I find so revolting and hypocritical about them. They bitch and whine about the atrocity of giving special favors to big banks and big business and then rather than seek to correct the actions they just want to get their own share of these inherently unjust rewards off the backs of the rest of us. Or off the backs of the big corps who won't simply pass the costs down to everyone else, cause they wouldn't do something like that to protect their profits now would they
Neither of them should be bailed out. If you look up my old posts on these topics you'll probably find a fairly consistent message from me: let the big banks fail, let GM and Chrysler go under, don't bail them out.
...
If you want to talk about a fair way to help the middle class then a tax refund based on the percent paid in would be the most fair way to go about it. Less fair would be a flat refund like we had a couple of times under Bush; his stimulus checks of $600(?) to every man woman and child in the country. They seemed to have a noticable, if temporary, effect.
Then much further down the rung and in no way fair we have asshat whose idea of a stimulus was to spend $787 billion on mostly unneeded and unwanted bullshit so long as NONE OF IT directly went to the taxpayers and MOST of it wouldn't even be injected into the economy in the near future. @300 million Americans that would have been the equivalent of $2623 per person.
I really don't want to steer this into a debate over Democrats and Republicans however if you insist on chastizing Bush at least consider the massive theft which Obama has pulled on the American people and consider what would have happened to our economy if a typical family of 4 had received over $10k to spend as they see fit back in 2009. I somehow doubt that we'd still be in the midst of a recession and at least the money would have been in the hands of the peasants who it was taken from in the first place.
Now just imagine if all the money being spent fighting wars we don't belong in was being spent here at home or wasn't being taxed away from us in the first place. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if some in Congress and perhaps the White House want to see the economy in this sorry state in order to entice more young people to join the military where they'll at least have a steady paycheck. Doing that would be a lot more politically palatable than reinstating the draft.
And yet I don't see any protests calling to end the war funding or correctly blaming Obama for his $787 billion misappropriation.
You see I can be more than a bit anti-establishment myself however I don't immediately flip that into trying to turn into the same type of thieving scum who I resent
I used to work for a huge company called Recoton about 20 years ago. Ended up being fired for being injured on the job due to faulty equipment. They tried to cover it up but i got a laywer and sued for my medical bills to be paid. Ended up being put on light duty work restrictions which was a nightmare as nobody will hire you period. It creates a huge liability for the employer and their insurance which can jack up employee coverage costs.
Eventually after every place in town including 7-11 refused to hire me i started to lie and pretended everything was fine. I got a job in roofing making enough money to afford a brand new truck and life was looking up. About 2 months later my boss calls me into the office and asked about my accident. It seems their insurance company got word about a Workman's comp claim and my injury. So they pulled me from the job and put me in the warehouse mainly cleaning up for a couple weeks. Eventually they made me a driver and paid me to drive all over the state which actually made me more money so that was great.
So to make it clear it's not so easy to get a job if you have a slight disability. First you have to prove you are legally disabled before an employer is legally obligated to make special consideration. To become legally disabled you need a doctor, lawyer and money because the doctor and lawyer aren't working for free and the government does not want to give benefits. If you are able to work and do certain tasks or make more then a set amount of money on top of your benefits you will lose your disability which becomes a catch 22.
This is why many who are disabled mooch from the system because it's broken and it does not encourage nor help a disabled person to be productive. Although many will volunteer to work in hospitals or do charity related stuff because they have nothing better to do. But if you knew how the system worked and how hard it can be just to become disabled you might have a different outlook. I know because it cost my mother a good bit in legal fees to fight for it and every few months she has to see her doctor for review. Also they have agents who check up on people from time to time and if you are caught doing things that you should not be doing they take away your benefits on the spot.
Yes we have programs and we have people who abuse those programs from time to time. The system is not perfect but it's better then nothing and nobody has a better solution. While everyone attacks programs such as disability no one seems to come up with a better system. Most naysayers also don't seem to get the fact that programs like disability, workers comp, unemployment and other forms of welfare are paid for by the very people who later use it. If you never have to use it that's great but i don't see you attacking insurance companies that basically sell the same type of service at unregulated premiums.
And just so you know my mother pays almost $2k per month for health insurance even though she is disabled. The government might help with food or bills but it wont pay for everything like most people believe. I think you would be had pressed to find many disabled people affording to live a good life. They don't even give disabled people food stamps anymore because the funding ran out years ago under Bush and that program now operates on very tight budgets.
Now tell us again about how much better the Bush Stimulus plan worked. Considering he bailed out everyone including people, homeowners and banks but yet the economy still collapsed before he left office. He in fact gave away billions to the very same failing banks who later came back to Obama looking for another hand out. So when a white president does it we call that Stimulus and when a black president does it we call that Welfare.
So who really banked and benefited the most from all those Bush rebate checks? could it have been the banks? many used their rebate to catch up on mortgage payments just before the bank foreclosed on their homes.
March 2008: Bush stimulus $29 billion for Bear Stearns/JP Morgan Chase deal
May 2008: Bush stimulus $178 billion in tax rebate checks
July 2008: Bush stimulus $300 billion for distressed homeowners
July 2008: Bush stimulus $200 billion for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
September 2008: Bush stimulus $50 billion to guarantee money market funds
September 2008: Bush stimulus $25 billion to Big 3 automakers
September-November 2008: Bush stimulus $150 billion to AIG
October 2008: Bush stimulus $700 billion to banks (TARP)
February 2009: Obama stimulus $787 billion in broad stimulus package
February 2009: Obama stimulus $75 billion for distressed homeowners
February 2009: Obama stimulus $200 billion for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
March 2009: Obama stimulus $30 billion for AIG
March 2009: Obama stimulus $15 billion for Small Business lending
March 2009: Obama stimulus $1 trillion for banks to remove "toxic assets" from their books
March 2009: Obama stimulus $22 billion for Big 3 automakers Chrysler and GM
April 2009: Global stimulus $1 trillion commitment from G-20 countries
June 2009: Obama stimulus $30 billion to help General Motors file bankruptcy
It's all the same game so don't kid yourself thinking Republicans or Libertarians or anyone else gives a shit about you any more then Obama.
Last edited by toker; October 2nd, 2011 at 11:46 PM.
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The American Dream
5 people. Lost our home in 2008; now we live in the poorest part of a poor city across the country.
1 life threatening disease.
1 naturalized citizen with a part-time minimum wage job.
2 high school students who struggled with developmental and learning disabilities.
1 first generation college grad with 20k in debt, 2 part time minimum wage jobs, and depression/anxiety that has the power to take over my life without medication.
Some weeks we can’t afford groceries. We certainly can’t afford the gas to travel anywhere but work and back.
WE ARE THE 99%
I ‘m a hard-working, college educated Generation X Father of two. I am lucky to have a full-time job but when you correct for inflation my pay is less than my parents in the 1970’s. Now younger people in Generation Y can’t find work that will pay them enough to survive. Multi-national corporations have prospered in the past 40 years. They have unfair advantage in our society, no allegiance to the United States, no social responsibility, and no limit to their greed. I fear for the future economic well being of my kids and my country.
I am the 99 percent.
How can I repay my debts and save for the future when all of my wages from my $9-an-hour food service job go towards disgustingly high rent, outrageously inflated taxes, and out-of-pocket medical expenses? No insurance. No help from anyone. No future unless I sacrifice my dignity in the present. Should I go back to school and take out more debt on the off-chance that things will get better? I can’t even move back home because I don’t have one anymore.
I am the 99% and I’m enraged.
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the number of people who mooch off the system for diability is probably a lot higher than you think. if you've never been around the type of folks for whom doing so is their primary source of income then consider yourself fortunate. the rules are in place for a reason, there is no excuse for subterfuge.
if you would stop your race baiting nonsense for a minute and read more closely you'd see that I was clearly referring to the specific actions of refunding income tax money to those who paid income tax as opposed to giving kickbacks to contractors and calling it a "stimulus".
No politician is "real", they all put on an act of some sort to convince idiots and the naive to support them. Some are worse than others. None of them care about 'you' except for 'you' in the collective sense and only to the extent required to garner your votes.
"How did I end up here? I have my BFA..." (Bachelor of Fine Arts)
Precisely how is this person deciding to take a field a study that is not in much demand the fault of anyone else?
Those damn Wall St. types conspiring to keep BFA majors from finding steady employment
I find this one especially funny because I briefly attended one of the most highly regarded fine arts academies in the world, although I couldn't afford to complete it. Most people going to those schools realize before starting that it's not something one should be getting into with the expectation of steady work or high pay. If those goals are the priority then you don't follow your dream job you follow what is practical and in demand, i.e. most likely something far more mundane.
Last edited by AmateurFlix; October 3rd, 2011 at 11:25 AM.
I think its more they are saying they have a college degree but can't find work anywhere to support themselves except by stripping
Not "hey I'm an artist why am I poor"
Unemployment is high as fuck still and while we could get more people employed by lowering the minimum wage to $3 (or getting rid of it completely, the true libertarian way), we'd even be more fucked then. If consumers have no money, no money gets spent. Then all the corporations simply leave the US and try to make their dollar elsewhere
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My step brother has the same degree and makes about $6k+ per month doing freelance design and used to make about half that working for a larger firm. Now he simply cut out the middle man to make more money like many smart Americans are beginning to do. The reason he got that degree is he worked for for state parks and recreation for 8 years and wanted to move into something better. If your greatest talent is panting and you suck at math then it would be pretty foolish to try and get a degree in finance.
So my bro was once a mere park manager (glorified weed wacker) and later became a graphic designer working on educational material for parks throughout the country. After he got his degree his pay jumped greatly and he had a much better future in a position that could take him in many directions. Eventually he moved on and went into the private sector taking a job in video production for less money. That job helped him build a portfolio, expand his experience and eventually go off on his own and make much much more.
So out of curiosity how much does your degree bring in per month?
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I couldn't afford a BFA from the academy I went to, so I dropped out. I do have another degree that I obtained earlier from a different school. As for my income, that's none of anyone's business. I'm self employed anyway so a degree in my current field of work isn't going to help me other than the knowledge which might come with it.
edit: I hope that you weren't trying to defend the wisdom of obtaining a BFA in hope of steady career advancement by citing your step brother's example. You do realize that his is an unlikely exception, don't you?
Last edited by AmateurFlix; October 3rd, 2011 at 01:31 PM.
He is an exception because of what.. the fact he took the time to actually finish school?
My bro is no prodigy he just had a bit of artistic talent that opened a few doors. That's about all any degree actually does is open up a hidden doors for greater opportunity. You have to walk inside those doors and sell yourself while the degree is not going to do the selling for you. But when the bad economy causes all the doors of opportunity to become boarded up that makes it pretty damn hard to sell yourself.
And his worthless degree got him a cake job with the county designing and plotting road signs. I bet you never thought that a sign designer is an artist or the guy who designs a car, advertisement, poster, jewelry, painting, wallpaper and so forth. Designers are everywhere they even develop computer cases used to house the hardware that enables people to surf your sites. You probably never hired a designer with a degree but i assure you they command far more then even the most talented designers without degrees.
Simply put not everyone is able to get those high end degrees for many different reasons aside from the fact they cost more then most could ever afford. I doubt if everyone in America became accountants, stock brokers, lawyers and doctors the world would be much better without the peasants like artists, pilots, drivers, maids, waiters, webmasters and so forth. Just like you are not giving up your Webmaster job for a real job like working at Walmart as you believe everyone else should do. That is until the affiliate model eventually crashes and forces your hand to which my bet is that you would take welfare over working at Walmart.
Btw i'm very curious if you even have Health insurance or do you find it too expensive for a lone website operator such as yourself?
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You seem to have a talent for making a lot of very incorrect assumptions about me.
First off if you actually had any first hand knowledge of that field you'd realize that the vast majority of art majors end up doing something either completely unrelated or only tangentially related to their field of study. It has very little to do with talent or education, it's usually just a combination of luck and persistance as to whether anyone gets a job in that field. Not everyone can afford to be as persistent as is required to get started.
Secondly I used to dabble in industrial design myself, before I went to school for fine arts, so yes I am very familiar with the kind of money that one can make doing that, and if you think people are asking freelancers whether they have a college degree or not you're misinformed. A degree in those fields is essentially meaningless, what is of value is having several years to concentrate on one's craft, develop a portfolio, and network with others in that field. I had none of those opportunities and was able to succeed anyway. When I attended a school for the fine arts it was mainly for personal enrichment, I really had no ambition to paint road signs or the equivalent for the rest of my life. And believe me no one needs to study for 4 years to paint road signs. One of my cousins did the same after an afternoon of training from his supervisor.
Point being that it was an expense I was willing to undertake and didn't think that the world was going to owe me a favor because I attended school for X amount of years or have some degree to hang on the wall (which I do). If a person wants the best chance at steady employment, then they need to gear their education toward that goal, and it will probably be something rather mundane that most people don't want to do. If their dream job is something which typically offers less stable employment, then they should determine if that's acceptable to them. What you see above is people who ate their cake and are now complaining that they don't have it too. They want a dream job with stability and then bitch when they can't pay for the little flight of fancy they enjoyed for a few years. I have zero sympathy for people like that, at best they're naive and in need of a different type of education in more than one way, at worst they're the type of gutter scum who do whatever they can to obtain for free from others who had to work for it.
How you managed to deduce from the above that I believe everyone should get a job at Walmart, I don't know. All I was getting at is that people need to be realistic in their expectations and adjust accordingly.
Finally, my insurance policies, like my income, are absolutely none of your concern.
Last edited by AmateurFlix; October 3rd, 2011 at 03:51 PM.
Here's a good summation of your 99%: The Genius Of The Crowd: Charles Bukowski - YouTube
Do you even know what a plotter is?
They haven't painted street signs for many many years and you don't learn to operate a plotter in one afternoon of training. Most people can't barely understand the functions of a cheap printer from Walmart in one afternoon. Also the people who develop signs for the roads are called traffic engineers even if you consider then mere sign makers. While you may think of that as a thoughtless job i'd say it's pretty important that new signs are constantly developed and improved to keep the roads safe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic...transportation)
You really seem to be so much more articulate and ambitious then everyone else. This must be why you take the time to tell me how your success is such a big secret. I mean i'm not a very successful person to put it bluntly. I'm just working class idiot like the other 99% of America trying to get through life and i don't see any shame in that really. But if i was successful i'd sure be proud enough to talk about my success with others and help them to better themselves through my worldly knowledge.
Anyhoo i'm done arguing i'll just continue to support the little people like me and you can continue to criticize the world if it floats your boat.
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Well I used to own a plotter for making blueprints so I'm somewhat familiar with the term. Unless they've changed significantly I don't see how they'd make road signs with what I'm referring to though. Something similar was used to cut vinyl adhesive letters, I forget what they were called.
I believe what my cousin was doing was actually silkscreening, or perhaps he was using a simple template. I didn't ask him any details because I wasn't that interested, he's a city worker and it was something he mentioned in passing years ago. The plotters I used were very easy to learn, the old style had a bunch of little pens in it, the newer ones like I had were just giant inkjet printers that fed off of a large roll of paper. There were better ones available that you could use to print on vinyl for outdoor banners etc. Any clerk at Kinko's probably has to learn how to use them to do their job.
Of course they are. Everyone is an engineer, it sounds so much more impressive than something which more clearly describes their activities
I have done a lot of different things and tried many different fields because I made an effort to do just that. Some areas I've been successful in and others I haven't. Some I've made a fair amount of money in and others were a wash. I've learned not to brag about my successes, and I'm not seeking pity either. I've never measured my success by my wealth, and I've never been willing to classify myself by my wealth or associate with others based upon their financial condition. That is for the greedy, the jealous, and the IRS to do.
If you're seeking advice of some sort, I am not your guru.
I've never really been that enthused about supporting people who denigrate themselves by considering themselves "little" or have such an inferiority complex as to consider others "big". As to who is criticizing the world, I'm not the one out in the streets holding angry signs or supporting those who do.Anyhoo i'm done arguing i'll just continue to support the little people like me and you can continue to criticize the world if it floats your boat.
Whatever man. I've said my piece.
Well I don't like to be very judgmental of people or at least I try not to be so I won't go into everything. But one thing to mention in regards to the student loans is that the laws surrounding them changed a lot. It used to be that one could get rid of those loans in bankruptcy if things got really bad. But some years ago they basically changed it so that is not reasonably possible. You are essentially on the hook for life. So I would say there is a good case for saying that many people really did not fully know what they were getting into at the time because the terms for the loans were essentially changed after the fact.aww isn't that too bad, this person is only getting $860/month from taxpayers who actually work for a living.
and what exactly is the implication here? that this individual is too disabled to work even a desk job of some sort and yet is physically fit enough to fuck like a whore?
at least half of the people on that page are bitching about paying off student loans - no one forced them to go to an expensive college and take out the loans. I wanted to go to an expensive college which I would only have been able to afford by taking out loans. I chose not to get into debt. if I had, then the only person to blame would have been myself, surely not some stockbrokers on Wall St.
some of them are even complaining about not being able to find a job "in their field", as if anyone owes them a job in their chosen field, or they expect to be able to find something of their preference in the midst of a recession.
where is the personal responsibility? I keep hearing some new catchphrase about a "social contract" of some sort, yet no one can produce it. I'd like to see a copy, I don't recall agreeing to anything like that.
99% whiney bitches
In addition while we legally think of people as adults after 18 usually most people around that age simply do not have enough life experience to make those sorts of decisions. And they are often easy prey for those who would manipulate them.
While I agree with some of your sentiments (personal responsibility is often a large part of it too); regarding the social contract in America, I must point out these words from the Preamble of the Constitution of America:
Wikipedia cites an example of this usage and the interpretation that "the Preamble's reference to "promot[ing] the general Welfare" as evidence that "[t]he health of the people was in the minds of our forefathers"."We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Preamble to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaAn example of the way courts utilize the Preamble is Ellis v. City of Grand Rapids.[18] Substantively, the case was about eminent domain. The City of Grand Rapids wanted to use eminent domain to force landowners to sell property in the city identified as "blighted", and convey the property to owners that would develop it in ostensibly beneficial ways: in this case, to St. Mary's Hospital, a Catholic organization. This area of substantive constitutional law is governed by the Fifth Amendment, which is understood to require that property acquired via eminent domain must be put to a "public use". In interpreting whether the proposed project constituted a "public use", the court pointed to the Preamble's reference to "promot[ing] the general Welfare" as evidence that "[t]he health of the people was in the minds of our forefathers".[19] "[T]he concerted effort for renewal and expansion of hospital and medical care centers, as a part of our nation's system of hospitals, is as a public service and use within the highest meaning of such terms. Surely this is in accord with an objective of the United States Constitution: '* * * promote the general Welfare.'"[20]
Also Social Contract figures heavily in the writings of John Locke and this in term figured heavily in the minds of many of the founding fathers- especially Thomas Jefferson.
Here's a rather good read: Social contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Again I agree with you that some whine too much but I also say that sometimes they make a legitimate point. It is the general welfare of all, not just the top 1% or even the top 10%.
I didn't realize that about student loans not being subject to bankruptcy laws. Although really one shouldn't be taking out loans that they think they'll need to evade anyhow. Dunno how recently those laws changed, maybe I could have gone to my dream college right out of high school and stuck everyone else with the bill after all.
That preamble cites the reasons why they created the Constitution, it does not in any way authorize any other acts to accomplish similar goals. Another cause was to establish and preserve liberty, something which one cannot have if one is contractually bound to others by birth.
That court opinion is clearly a stretch of logic. The courts have no problem making such stretches when it's convenient. As an example this country was founded by an all volunteer army. In the early 1800's the idea of conscription was floated and almost universally considered to be a form of slavery; I really don't know what else you'd properly call forcing someone into being a war slave. By the time of the civil war that was no longer convenient and the courts did a 180 and claimed that it was somehow implied in the Constitution that citizens had a duty to their government despite there being absolutely no reference to it at all. We've been fighting endless wars ever since. The courts can usually be relied upon to make up shit whenever it's convenient for them to do so.
If you want to have an idea of what the founders meant, I find it's best to limit oneself to their own laws at that time. Anything after that is just a mixture other people's opinions and compromises which stray from original intent in some way or another.
It's kind of common sense too. I mean if a majority of your citizens hate the system and feel that it doesn't meet their needs they are probably going to consider overthrowing it or at least probably won't defend it very well when it is threatened. This is where philosophers like John Locke come in. Consider that the general ideas of a social contract and "God given rights" were cited as a justification for forming the country in the first place. Ideally you want a majority of your citizens to be happy, not miserable, for good reason.
I went to college too. My parents paid for the first year. Guess how I mostly paid for the rest? (this) Kind of funny.... I literally started doing this in a dorm room.
Regarding the law change the last major one was in 1998:
http://www2.ed.gov/offices/OSFAP/DCS...discharge.htmlBankruptcy
Effective October 8, 1998, your obligation to repay Title IV, HEA student loan and grant liabilities can no longer be canceled (discharged) due to bankruptcy, unless you can successfully prove that repayment of the debt would cause "undue hardship" as defined by case law in your jurisdiction. Previously, student loan and grant liabilities could only be canceled (discharged) due to bankruptcy under certain conditions which, in general, depended on the amount of time between the date on which a loan or grant liability was due or the date that the bankruptcy was filed, as well as undue hardship.
Effective May 28, 1991 and prior to October 8, 1998, a loan or grant liability was discharged by entry of a general discharge order if the first payment came due on the debt at least 7 years before the bankruptcy was filed. Prior to 1991 amendments, only five years was required. Any grace periods, forbearance, or deferment must be subtracted from the time elapsed between the first payment due date and the filing date when calculating time in repayment. Debts outstanding for less than the required seven year period could be discharged only if the court made an express finding that the repayment of the debt would place an "undue hardship" on the borrower. These non-dischargeability requirements apply to educational loans received by both student borrowers and by parent borrowers, and apply to loans received by any kind of borrower to pay off prior loans (Consolidation Loans). Dischargeability of these types of debts is governed by 11 U.S.C. 523 (a)(8). In order to determine the dischargeability of a loan, the servicing agency needs the following three pieces of information from you or your attorney:
Notice of First Meeting of Creditors;
List of Creditors (Schedule A-3); and
the Final Discharge Order
Please call us 1-800-621-3115 for additional information on any of the information on this page.
Very few probably ever planned to have to discharge a loan in Bankruptcy.
Last edited by allniche; October 3rd, 2011 at 06:25 PM.
The problem with citing those general ideas as justification for further encroachments upon our liberties is that the country was founded with liberty being the primary concern. Satiating the public's appetite for material wealth is an unattainable goal; the more that they are given the more they'll demand, and it can only be given to them by taking it away from others. Those who it is taken from eventually get tired of the theft and then you have the takers becoming unhappy for being cut off while those who were taken from get quite pissed off as well. Which really seems to bring us to the current political climate.
It is an unwinnable situation brought about by unrealistic expectations on the part of both the poor as well as the very large corporate influence peddlers who interfere with the functioning of government. You can't have a society for very long based upon the premise of using government to do your dirty work - i.e. the armed robbery of some other "taxpayer" - for you. Yet that is the society which we have.
Honestly I couldn't bring myself to defend this government at this point. It doesn't deserve it. My ancestors fought against regimes like this, not for them. Defending it, to me, would betray the actions of those who fought for a very different nation in previous generations. I suspect that I am not the only one who feels that way. Maybe someday the American government will be something worthy of my respect once again. For now it is only the idea of America which deserves it, which frankly seems to be more greatly embodied in some emerging nations who have fought their way out of the direction this country is heading.
Anyway, I enjoy a stimulating debate, particularly with someone who can keep their cool, however this topic is beginning to be a massive time suck for me, so I'm probably not going to post any more
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