Thread: Palin abandons commitment to Alaskans

Originally Posted by Webby

Did Obama spend much time on intelligent design - if so, that could be a new thread on it's own.

I have no idea how that is supposed to be relevant to anything being discussed.

Originally Posted by Webby

I do believe there is a segment of a bailout package for the construction of a new mosque in the Rose Garden to allow the President to be called to prayer a few times each day

I have no idea how that is supposed to be relevant to anything being discussed either.

Originally Posted by Webby

He was registered at both Muslim and Catholic schools and given religious instruction in both and may well have attended several religious centers. I have too over the years - that has nothing to do with my personal beliefs.

That assertion is ridiculous and a serious example of wishful thinking.

For someone to come from a Christian family, attend a Christian school, have family members and childhood friends confirm they attended a Christian church for Christian services, and recite a Christian prayer in public, to later claim that they never were Christian, would be correctly dismissed as a lie, and a very poorly constructed lie at that.

For some reason when the word "Muslim" is substituted into the above, you are willing to believe it. That's clearly indicative of a bias.

Originally Posted by Webby

Why are you caring whether someone walks into a mosque or any other religious center? People are free to do as they wish and believe whatever they like. This concern appears more an obsession than much else.

Please reread my statement. I don't care - I was using it as an example that no matter what he did, no matter how clear and plain and deliberate the actions to indicate that, someone would claim that it was something other than what it was. As you just did now, lol. This does indeed appear to be an obsession, but on your part - you refuse to acknowledge the obvious.

Originally Posted by Webby

Personally I think there are many US "religious" sects who are looney and extreme, and no different to any other forms of religious extremism.

I'd disagree with that in part. To be sure, there are many loony and extreme religious sects supposedly under many of the various major religions. There are some Christian extremists who feel it justified to kill abortion doctors, for instance. However none of the anti-abortion extremists have ever crashed two planes full of people into buildings and killed thousands of people while simultaneously coordinating multiple attacks in other regions of the country.

Religious extremism is a fairly wide umbrella that covers many types, some much more damaging and dangerous than others. They are not all the same, nor are they all equal.

Originally Posted by Webby

You allege this, - where exactly did he make an "issue" of it and lie, to whom, where and at what period?

There was once something on his website declaring that (paraphrased) he is not a muslim, never has been a muslim, and was not raised as a muslim. It was later retracted after evidence to the contrary came forward, and I believe that it was blamed on a "rogue designer"

The lie has since been repeated ad nauseam by much of the press. Any mere questioning of the claims was typically retaliated against with charges of racism or prejudice without consideration of the authenticity of the claim.

Originally Posted by Webby

People get seeds of whatever into their braincells and will use them to fit whatever agendas they prefer - their "comfort factor". In this instance, it appears more related to deviant political agendas and group-think together with a "need" to believe, rather than cold hard fact (which is prob irrelevant even if it were true).

That is essentially my assertion here as well. There has been a lot of liberal "group-think" reinforcing the notion that what is plainly true, is not true. That a man named Barack Hussein Obama who attended mosque and registered as Muslim when he went to school was never Muslim. They have seeds of presumed prejudice and presumed bias implanted into their braincells and use those seeds to fit their agenda of accusing their political enemies of endorsing those topics. They gleefully look for anything which might be construed as or made to appear as prejudicial because it gives them an excuse to use pejoratives against their enemies - regardless of whether the pejoratives are true or not.

Do not take the above as me trying to twist your words around - this was the basis for statement in an earlier post in this very thread.

Originally Posted by Webby

I have no idea why anyone would want to waste their time on discussions over another individuals religious beliefs are unless there is an agenda for doing so.

You seem to fail to understand that the issue is his honesty regarding this topic. The religion itself is a red herring. Misrepresentation of his beliefs (apparently for political gain) is the issue.

Originally Posted by Webby

What actual evidence do you have that Obama regarded himself as a Muslim and then allegedly lied to some unknown party?

The very same evidence which I've already referenced numerous times in this post. I'm not going to repeat it again just because you want to play dumb continuously.

this isn't the statement which I was referring to, but a similar claim is on a new page. I trust that you won't complain this is an unreliable source Organizing for America | BarackObama.com

I won't rehash all of the previous topics, and I'm not going to spend the time to cite sources for all of them either - however I will (again) link this image: http://web.israelinsider.com/Static/...ation424_0.jpg

This is a copy of his school records. It should be noted that at that time, he went by the name of Barry Soetoro (his stepfather's last name), and the records indicate his faith was "Islam" - that was not a signup sheet for an Islamic studies class, mind you, rather it is his school enrollment record. I've never heard of any reasonable accusation alleging that record was faked, and others who knew him at the time (including his own family members) have corroborated his Muslim faith.

If you continue on that page, you'll also find a hyperlink stating that "Barack Never Attended a Muslim School" - yet the substance of their denial does not, in fact, claim that he did not attend a "Muslim school" but rather simply this:

CNN Reporter John Vause reported, "I came here to Barack Obama's elementary school in Jakarta, looking for what some are calling an Islamic Madrassa, like the ones that teach hate and violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan.. I've been to those Madrassas in Pakistan and Wolf, this school is nothing like that." [CNN, Situation Room, 1/22/07]

The allegation never was that he attended some radicalized school which taught "hate and violence", but rather simply that he attended a (normal) school and was registered as a Muslim. All students at that school were registered as either a Muslim or as a Christian - he picked one.

I trust that you do now see the slant and the bias presented with the story as reported by the press?

Two claims have been made, both somewhat similar, one reasonable and one radical.
The first claim was simply that Barry registered as a Muslim while attending school.
The second claim was that Barry attended some kind of terrorist school while a child.

The press did not address the first claim at all; instead they "investigated" the radical claim. Since there exists a perceived prejudice that Americans confuse all Muslims with terrorists, any mention of the first claim ends up getting misinterpreted as a reference to the second. The press has made a subtle parody of what is by all appearances a real, legitimate claim - and they repeatedly assert Obama's claim that he was never a Muslim when they have evidence that should at the least make them question the validity of that claim.

Parents typically know what religion their children are. I'm not sure if it was his stepfather or if it was his mother who enrolled him in the school. Regarding the status of supposed Indonesian citizenship or any other minor errors, that's another matter entirely, and I see it as irrelevant as if his name were misspelled or something like that.

I am entirely willing to accept the idea that someone whose father was Muslim and has a Muslim name himself, might never have been a Muslim other than by birth. However, the vast amount of evidence - circumstantial or otherwise - which all points in the same direction, along with corroborating statements from schoolmates & relatives, as well as documentation, sure seems to be adequate proof to me. Any one item taken on it's own, perhaps not... together, that would be an exceptionally unlikely sequence of misleading errors, if that's all they really were.

Anyway, I would like to thank you for at least taking the time to consider the possibility that isn't merely some wacko rhetoric as it was made to appear to be. I've heard plenty of truly bizarre and obviously false claims made about Obama, none of which I really cared about since I'd determined much earlier in his campaign that he wouldn't be a good representative for my beliefs anyway. However there are a few claims which do appear legitimate, and in the media's zeal to quash the ridiculous, they've not really held this man to the same level of scrutiny as they typically hold other candidates to, IMO.

Originally Posted by Webby

It's hard to reach any conclusion out of this stuff - tho prob could if time was spent on it. I'll see if someone who has more experience/resources than we will ever have wants to waste a Sunday afternoon with a bottle of wine investigating the early adventures of Obama for therapy - tho can anticipate the response when the original source material is the net and press reports - "Yeah! Rrright!"

Well, as I said, it's the amount of clues pointing in the same direction more than it is any one particular item. However, if it turns out that he was not registered as a Muslim student at that school and that the document is a forgery, that would certainly poke a hole in the most compelling document. Still wouldn't explain the statements from his relatives claiming he attended mosque with them though.

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

Well, as I said, it's the amount of clues pointing in the same direction more than it is any one particular item. However, if it turns out that he was not registered as a Muslim student at that school and that the document is a forgery, that would certainly poke a hole in the most compelling document. Still wouldn't explain the statements from his relatives claiming he attended mosque with them though.

Hehe .. I doubt anyone could prove much on the school record AmFlix unless they visit the place and start asking questions etc. The alleged image of this record is barely readable on websites. It has been suggested it is a forgery extracted from a copy of Obama's stepsister's school record, tho there is nothing to support that claim. Assuming it is genuine, not sure that document means much in itself either way - eg the religion of the father applies and we know he was a Muslim - and the other claim of Barry being an Indonesian citizen is another loose term ie it's not even possible for US child to change citizenship because his mother remarried.

One of the most notable things about this stuff is not actually to do with Obama or his heritage, but more a comment on the net. The sheer volume of rubbish published on the Internet is astounding when it comes to religious and/or political topics. It may start at the top level with the more obvious agenda-type websites where you would expect misinformation/propaganda, tho below that, there are more subtle websites. The backgrounds of some of these website owners are apparently well-known and range from upstanding members of the community to total whackos - a number are only a few steps away from domestic terrorism if they did not like what they heard. Not talking about KKK type stuff - these are "average" people, but in some way have a profile which is on the brink.

If that was not enough even without that element and on "normal" websites, the general level of ignorance/misinformation is astounding. It's obvious cut and paste has become a content generator and life support system for some webmasters - and the garbage gets permeated over the net - leading to still more fiction

Similar to follow-the-money, it's suggested we follow-the-players more than the claimed evidence from the net - ie the background of Lolo Soetoro, Ann Dunham and maybe to a lesser extent, young Barry who had little say in this at age six. So, did a little bit of follow-the-players below....

The mother claimed to be an atheist (tho this may come from from her belief that Christians tend to behave in non Christian ways) - she appears to be a free spirit and made efforts to educate her children - and earned a Ph.D in anthropology.

The stepfather was a Muslim tho not devote and appears a reasonable character in the family unit. Indonesia called all expats home in the late 60's, hence the reason for the family moving to Indonesia.

An examination of the players (and obviously with more background re lifestyle/customs) may give a clue - for example, if the suggestion is being made that Barry was a Muslim in the true sense, why would his parents send him to a Catholic school when most schools in Indonesia are Muslim?

By looking at the people, this can also give an insight into what they may be thinking. If we look at the father, Lolo Soetoro, - he married Ann and also undertook to take care of Barry and treat him as family - this means Ann and Barry will take the name Soeroto and the Muslim religion. (Barry does not get to make choices in this - he's six). Another, more than likely possibility is that Lolo Soetoro would not have any clue of US law (why should he? He's an Indonesian citizen) where it states the child's citizenship cannot be revoked. It is most probable that Lolo Soetoro assumed that Barry's status converted along with that of Ann Durham - and he completed whatever paperwork to effect that change. Obviously his assumption would be wrong and, in effect, the paperwork would be invalid. This may also explain, assuming the school record is authentic, where it shows Barry was naturalized in Indonesia and is a Muslim.

Ann Durham was not a Muslim - she was her own agent ;-) - tho suppose technically she may have been Muslim by marriage, tho doubt she considered herself a Muslim based on her background. It is more than possible that Barry visited a mosque with his father. (I'd need to check but think Obama actually said in a book that he visited mosques). On Barry's part - hell, he would not know crap at aged six - he would go along with whatever his parents told him to do.

On the surface, it appears Barry's parents where doing whatever all parents do and living a normal life with their children. They may well have assumed their paperwork was in order and why would they question it? As long as no boats were being rocked, they were happy. They would have needed some normalization of paperwork when the family moved to Indonesia and they did that. Remember this was in 1966-67 and things were a little different then - the family did not have the benefit of Internet misinformation *s* and paperwork was something you kept in a box under the bed and thought very important, but had no idea why.

So far, on the Indonesia side, very few people seem to remember Lolo Soetoro, Ann Durham or Barry Soetoro, tho there are alleged friends of Barry who have emerged. It's surprising how friends emerge when someone becomes 'famous', but most folks who supposedly lived next door, cannot recall them. (I've not had time to look at what his friends say).

I've leave you to draw your own conclusions - I'm thinking there is a story here, and interesting one, but not necessarily much to do with religion or intention to deceive, but more a way of life at that time. In Barry/Obama's instance, he is probably the best person to ask what his beliefs are. If he personally believes he was never a Muslim - he wasn't, despite what his stepfather may have assigned him. If he claims he's a movie producer in nightclubs - he is. (Anyone can be one! *s*) I've not had to time look, but understand Obama has made several references in his books to his childhood and referenced religion.

As for websites, whether these are bloggy/agenda or mainstream news sites - they all screw up and can't be relied on. They can hardly report a crime event without screwing the detail and going off on tangents, forget trying to convey history in a sound byte. Can see the value of a good journalist and there are still some around.