Thread: Cheaterhell - calling people cheats who did not violate any trade terms

To be clear, none of my sites have ever been listed there to my knowledge. This is not retaliation of any kind, and I have no beef with any specific individual affiliated with cheaterhell ('nada this means you lol). It is to alert webmasters of a very dangerous situation.

I really don't like putting a site like this which offers some benefits in the shitlist, however there has been a pattern of them listing honest webmasters as cheaters and I fear it may be doing a significant amount of harm at this point to the reputations of many honest, innocent webmasters.

I may have inadvertantly blacklisted webmasters myself that appeared in cheaterhell, under what now appear to be false accusations.

As some webmasters are incorporating a cheaterhell lookup into their scripts, cheaterhell's mistakes and unspecifed policies for inclusion now stand to affect us all in a very automated manner, which is not good for anyone.

Cheaterhell has been naming webmasters as cheats who did nothing that violated the terms of the trade rules which they signed up under.

When this was discussed in another thread, an attempt was made to dismiss my concerns as pertaining to one specific issue that is somewhat controversial. The problem however is with a larger issue of what constitutes a valid cheating accusation regarding topics in which opinions vary widely. It seems that the cheaterhell editors (who are anonymous and thus cannot be held accountable for their decisions) are unwilling to take into account opinions other than their own on these matters.

To be clear, this has nothing at all to do with any malicious acts, trojans, or fraudulent traffic.

A list of known problems:
1. Many confirmed honest webmasters have had their sites carelessly labelled as cheaters. This is perhaps unavoidable with any blacklist, however people running a blacklist should learn from their mistakes if they are to be trusted with their task, not continue to make the same errors over and over again at the expense of everyone but themselves, putting the burden on those who have been wronged time and again.
2. They have a policy of requiring the accused of clearng his name wherever it was listed, but cannot always provide the accused with where his name was listed at, thus making it impossible for those wronged to clear themselves in some instances.
3. The owner of the site remains unknown, so we don't know who is responsible for this list.
4. The editors of cheaterhell mostly remain anonymous, so they cannot be held accountable either.
5. Their consideration for what is considered a valid cheat complaint seems totally arbitrary. Cheaterhell has been online for over a year now and STILL lacks a basic policy or FAQ explaining it's procedures and what specific actions constitute a valid cheat according to their terms.
6. It has been mentioned that some webmasters are now being listed as cheats merely for doing things which did not violate ANY terms of the trade rules established by either webmaster involved.
http://www.askdamagex.com/showpost.p...7&postcount=51

Why someone is supposed to be a mind-reader and anticipate problems that the other party didn't care enough about to bother putting in his rules is beyond me. Putting them on a public blacklist for a mere lack of communication is beyond reproach.

7. When prompted for clarification on the issue above, the cheaterhell representative has so far refused to provide examples of any other specific actions which might result in being called a cheater. So now no one knows what specific acts might cause being listed there, apparently you do not even have to violate anyone's trade rules to be subject to the designation of cheater.


I really don't think it's very much to ask what specific actions might lead to an inclusion in cheaterhell other than:

1. fraudulent (hitbot) traffic
2. malicious exploits like virus, trojan, downloads, etc
3. illegal sites
4. violating someone's posted trade rules

Apparently they have some other agenda and are unwilling to clarify the situation or be honest regarding who is running the site.

I can no longer trust the results given at cheaterhell as being made in good faith and neither should anyone else. Any public blacklist should be nothing more than a guide and never used to automatically pass judgement on a site without seeing evidence firsthand, however it should also be held accountable for fraudulent listings of innocent webmasters, especially when it has demonstrated a pattern of unjustly accusing the innocent repeatedly.

Seriously, you are going about this ALL WRONG. Again, Cheaterhell isn't prefect. Nothing is. But what you're doing is making an effort to devalue what's possibly the most reputable anti-cheat effort in the history of this industry, simply because YOU don't agree with what they're doing. Not fucking cool.

Originally Posted by DamageX

...simply because YOU don't agree with what they're doing. Not fucking cool.

isn't that the very thing that THEY are doing, listing people as cheats who broke no stated rules simply because they didn't agree with what the other webmaster was doing?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

isn't that the very thing that THEY are doing, listing people as cheats who broke no stated rules simply because they didn't agree with what the other webmaster was doing?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander

I'd say the main difference there is the purpose. This isn't a court of law, where everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. I, personally, have no problem shooting first and asking questions second. This is a business, I'm in it to make money and if anyone threatens that I will do my best to ensure that they're no longer a threat to me or to anyone else. Cheaterhell helps me with that, as does it help many other fellow webmasters. Again, it's not a perfect tool, but then again nothing is. I'd argue that a vast majority of the sites that ended up there did so rightfully. What YOU are doing, on the other hand, is trying to discredit the one resource where LOTS of people turn, just because YOU don't agree with the way they deem who's a cheater and who isn't. You have not offered to help them improve and you have not done anything constructive to aid the matter at hand. All you did was call them out for being shady because they didn't ask you how they should run their operation.

The ONLY problem I have with CheaterHell is that they don't list the threads where a cheater was called out. Doing so would eliminate the need to question if the person listed on CheaterHell was really doing something wrong or not.

It's not a perfect site, but that is probably one of the major things I believe it lacks. Basically, providing no source kind of makes it seem as someone's opinion more so than actual fact.

I understand that its tough to go back and provide sources for all the people listed on that site, but they could easily start to provide the URLs from now on and it would solve a lot of problems for them, and for the people who are accused.

Originally Posted by DamageX

I'd say the main difference there is the purpose. This isn't a court of law, where everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. I, personally, have no problem shooting first and asking questions second.

I'd rather not presume someone is guilty based on the postings of an anonymous editor giving no references. Although unlikely due to our reputations, it could just as easily be you or I listed there

Originally Posted by DamageX

This is a business, I'm in it to make money and if anyone threatens that I will do my best to ensure that they're no longer a threat to me or to anyone else.

Same here, but to me it seems that a false accusation from cheaterhell could do much more damage to my business than some cheat which I would eventually catch on my own through other means. So why should I accept the inherent risk in legitimizing a public blacklist when I get so little out of it?

Originally Posted by DamageX

I'd argue that a vast majority of the sites that ended up there did so rightfully.

To be clear, I agree with that as well. The problem is not with the majority of the listings being incorrect, for they are not, it is with all of the listings being unsubstantiated and a much smaller amount being unfairly accused of wrongdoing.

Originally Posted by DamageX

What YOU are doing, on the other hand, is trying to discredit the one resource where LOTS of people turn, just because YOU don't agree with the way they deem who's a cheater and who isn't. You have not offered to help them improve and you have not done anything constructive to aid the matter at hand. All you did was call them out for being shady because they didn't ask you how they should run their operation.

I didn't want them to ask me how to run their operation In fact I want nothing to do with it. And if that is "the one resource where LOTS of people turn" that just makes the problem all the worse, because their errors can affect alot more innoncents than, for instance, a cheater forum where people can at least rebuke accusations fairly.

I don't know if it is possible to run a public blacklist fairly, I'd tend to say that it is not. Personally I'd prefer not being exposed to the risk of false accusations and thereby getting an entire network banned by some webmasters rather than dealing with a few rogue cheaters every week that I usually find quickly anyway.

The risk/reward is simply too far out of balance for me to view this as a positive entity for my business

points 6 and 7 of this have been addressed here http://www.askdamagex.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=82

the rest of what I have mentioned remains unresolved as yet, however that goes a long way in this matter to me, and invalidates the meaning of the title of this thread for the most part.

If someone wants to move this to the "Resolved Issues" forum, to be clear I consider other issues unresolved, however the main impetus of the thread has been addressed to my satisfaction. i.e. 'nada gave incomplete information which led to this

I think this thread is more of a discussion than playing the blame game. If anything, it should be moved to the main discussion.

Realy a shame ..........
i won't post here anything to defend again and again cheaterhell.com with the same and same arguments but just post only 2 things, after that everybody is free to post whatever he wants:

- right now cheaterhell contains exactly 9558 cheater sites, so far about 15 - 20 sites (at most) have been removed due mistakes made in the poster or things didn't defend the entry and validity of the post. 20 out of 9558 sites, or in other words 0.2%. We realy deserve this thread (sarcastic)

- adding the link to the forum where a site has been posted was long time promised to be released with the new version, combined with some other features. It can't be done faster, i'am sorry, it's not all that easy as it may seem, but we always said it's a MUST that links are provided, temporary we dig out all the links for people asking and NOBODY has been returned or NOT given attention and the info who requested it which costs us ourself as well much time. But that's the situation.

Thx for the shitlist entry, i'am realy disapointed from the way you handle things, some kind of who is crying loudest is right, not to talking how childish it is just because we have a different opinion in some matters than you, sadly but true .... Cheaters will laugh their ass off for sure

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

points 6 and 7 of this have been addressed here http://www.askdamagex.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=82

the rest of what I have mentioned remains unresolved as yet, however that goes a long way in this matter to me, and invalidates the meaning of the title of this thread for the most part.

If someone wants to move this to the "Resolved Issues" forum, to be clear I consider other issues unresolved, however the main impetus of the thread has been addressed to my satisfaction. i.e. 'nada gave incomplete information which led to this

i give SHIT about your opinion and i didn't gave any incomplete information. i write my hands off to solve and explain whatever is needed when it comes to cheaterhell and some troll like you posts here because your own ego can't handle that someone has another opinon. Leave me alone and keep your anti-cheaterhell campaign alive, we handled more serious issues and we will for sure handle the amok run of another webmaster as well because it's obvious that we do our best.......

Originally Posted by Pornonada

- adding the link to the forum where a site has been posted was long time promised to be released with the new version, combined with some other features. It can't be done faster, i'am sorry, it's not all that easy as it may seem, but we always said it's a MUST that links are provided, temporary we dig out all the links for people asking and NOBODY has been returned or NOT given attention and the info who requested it which costs us ourself as well much time. But that's the situation.

That makes more sense.

Got any idea when that is set to release? (I mean that in months because I know giving exact date is not possible)

Also, moving this thread to resolved. Although I do not agree with the thread being in this section, everyone has the right to do it.

Originally Posted by CraK

I think this thread is more of a discussion than playing the blame game. If anything, it should be moved to the main discussion.

Why? There are several discussions on the main forum, he posted it here with intention, so it be ........ I'am NOT begging for a movement as we don't think we have done anything wrong.
If this is what we deserve for our daily fight against cheaters, helping webmasters, taking the risk, so it be .........
Cheaterhell is nothing that generates or makes us profit, no advertising, no nothing, people are free to use it, if they don't like it, don't thrust it, don't believe it or whatever, it's THEIR problem, we don't force anybody to use it, quiet simple as that. So if someone got impressed by this thread, we are sorry but we don't think we handle things the wrong way.

Originally Posted by CraK

That makes more sense.
Got any idea when that is set to release? (I mean that in months because I know giving exact date is not possible)

We work on a totally new script, some related things have to be managed first before this can be done. After that the whole database will be redone. We work on it, it can take 1 month or 6 months as it's not only up to us for several reasons, but as i said, nobody who has an entry there will be not able to find out after making a post.

Originally Posted by CraK

Also, moving this thread to resolved. Although I do not agree with the thread being in this section, everyone has the right to do it.

Moved it back, while you don't agree that it's in the resolved issues thread i don't see any logic that it's "resolved" after there is NO issue for listing us in the public shitlist. Being a resolved issue means there has to be one in first place which i can't see other than minor things that could be done to improve it, but if we get listed here for such things than we better quiet it and use it personally only. As i said, i never beg for an edition, deletion or whatever concerning me or my sites or projects!!!!

Originally Posted by Pornonada

- adding the link to the forum where a site has been posted was long time promised to be released with the new version, combined with some other features. It can't be done faster, i'am sorry, it's not all that easy as it may seem, but we always said it's a MUST that links are provided

that site never should have been released without it even just now you say that it is a MUST yet it is not present anyway.

Originally Posted by Pornonada

i give SHIT about your opinion .

LOL

that about sums it up.

I hope others view this post of yours when they consider doing business with you you handle conflict like a real pro.

You have your hands in a site which I stand to gain little to no benefit from at all, threatens my own reputation merely by my doing what I've done for years (at least by your incomplete explanation), then try to put me in the wrong for calling you on the situation AFTER I attempted to clear it up.

Real nice 'nada.

This thread should seriously be in the main. Again, while everyone makes mistakes and I agree that Cheaterhell would benefit from offering more transparency, it's still a pro bono project and the people behind it have made it clear that the known issues are being addressed as fast as possible.

I proposed that it should be moved to main as it has no place in this section. It's more of a discussion, with slight hostility.. but that's normal.

Originally Posted by CraK

I proposed that it should be moved to main as it has no place in this section. It's more of a discussion, with slight hostility.. but that's normal.

.
hah slight hostility is a under statement hah. the last few weeks seems like some board memebers have been at each others throats more then normal.

Originally Posted by Pornonada

than we better quiet it and use it personally only.

I'm going to diverge from CH for a moment...


I hate to say it because the idea of fighting cheaters so boldly and publicly sounds appealling, a nice everyone-work-together type of thing, however that approach only makes catching cheaters harder for me and lots of others.

Someone posts a cheater's IP, he gets a new IP. And I can no longer red-flag it.

Someone bans a host, registrar, etc, and the cheats all fly off to dozens of other hosts and registrars. I no longer have the ability to red flag that either.

Someone posts about illegal tradescripts all over the place, that red flag is gone when they start using others.

Someone posts about other scripts common to cheaters, they quit using those to blend in more.

Every step of the way it makes it harder for the cheaters to function, but it makes them that much harder to catch as well.

Sure lots of noobs with very little traffic benefit (sorry guys), but does it really help those of us more established who already have gone through all the bull shit and know what to look for? I'm really starting to doubt that.

I'm certainly not condoning censorship of anyone's findings that they wish to share, but I wonder if broadcasting "I KNOW HOW YOU CHEAT HERE IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND HOW I AM FINDING YOU" is really the wisest move either.


edit: I don't care where this thread is moved to, I hope no one is waiting on my say in the matter...

Originally Posted by AmateurFlix

that site never should have been released without it even just now you say that it is a MUST yet it is not present anyway.




LOL

that about sums it up.

I hope others view this post of yours when they consider doing business with you you handle conflict like a real pro.

You have your hands in a site which I stand to gain little to no benefit from at all, threatens my own reputation merely by my doing what I've done for years (at least by your incomplete explanation), then try to put me in the wrong for calling you on the situation AFTER I attempted to clear it up.

Real nice 'nada.

Yes, i give shit that you listed us in the public shitlist, aboslutly write. Here again, i give shit about it because it's not a discussion which you lead, it's that we apply to your opinion. We don't need you to tell us how to run cheaterhell, we are absolutly aware of every weekness and strong side it has and we work on the weak moments (which aren't many).
You are such a smartass saying that it shouldn't had been released with that feature, dude, if we knew it from beginning we would have done it of course, smarty. It was planned to be a private database for circle of webmasters and additionally we bought it from the previous owner who wasn't able to withstand the huge preassure from the cheaters he listed and we didn't want that it falls into the wrong hands.

And yes, i give realy shit about your opinion, because other than moaning you don't do anything to improve it, want some features quickly made? Fine, why not donating 10k so a new great script can be written and in 2 months anotother one because we prepare something new. Damn, what a selfconvienced smartass you are in front of your monitor, forgetting that you have nearly NO contribution to the anti-cheat issues other than smart talking and thinking and exposing the results and finally threating us like cheaters and scumbags.

Handling a conflict like a pro? You make X posts, various threads, and entry in the public shitlist and tell me how to manage a conflict? Doesn't that sound somehow wrong to you? Forget it, i don't want to get into whatever discussion with you or i will risk another shitlist entry about my own maybe next time??